Interviews with community members from the Miskito communities of Wisconsin and Santa Clara
November 14th 2020
Tortilla con Sal: Well, we're here with compañero Emsly Bolaños. Emsly, maybe you could say what your position is, why are we here in Wisconsin talking with the compañeros?
Emsly Bolaños: Well, here we've come to verify about the problem of most concern to the community, which is the issue of remediation. Now the need, the demand most felt by the community according to the communal authorities and some community members, they propose that it is the boundary clearance, because others have totally invaded the areas where they used to work. Also on the other hand, they mention that after 2015, 2017 there was not very much conflict for the simple reason that they are not actively claiming the area where other brothers and sisters are occupying. But if they were to try and actively claim the communal areas where the other mestizo brothers and sisters are located, we call them outsiders, there could be another conflict equally like what happened in the years 2015 to 2017.
Taking that into account, they are waiting for the government, as they have done many times for years now, for the government to take steps, starting with the inter-territorial boundary setting so as to to know who is inside the territory, who are occupying those areas where the community used to sow their crops. They also explain that there have been several meetings, meeting after meeting, talking about the same issue, about remediation, but according to them there has been no response from the government. So they request, they make the petition to the government that it is necessary to do the inter-territorial boundary clearance because the coordinates already exist, and are defined in the official title of the government of the Wangki Twi Tasba Raya territory.
But the bad thing is that they have not been cleared from one trig point to another, that is, from one coordinate to another,
TcS: That's the boundary clearance?
Emsly: Yes, that's the boundary clearance. So, they are asking the government to clear the boundary between the coordinates, the trig points where they are in the official title of the Wangki Twi Tasba Raya territory. And for them, they feel that this would be the starting point towards the solution of the problem. Because then they can know who is inside their territory and then they can go to dialogue, to talk, because without knowing who is inside their territory, it is not possible to talk or dialogue. Because there are people who are there, they carry a document that sometimes when they are reviewed turn out to be documents sold by other territorial authorities but they are land located within the territory of Wangki Twi Tasba Raya.
TcS: Authorities from another territory?
Emsly: Exactly. Except some do have property documents sold by some ex-combatants who also have a legal document that was issued by the government itself.
TcS: But in the time of President Violeta...
Emsly: Exactly, yes. So, there are all these classifications of people before they reach there, they mention that the inter-territorial boundary clearance is important so as to then move on to the second stage which is the negotiation, to see who can stay there, but under the agreement of the same community, and who cannot. And they will select the appropriate area so that outsiders can be located where there is no problem. In other words, there are isolated areas of the community that can be located and there they can talk about leasing, they can, although it is not official, but it could be one of the solutions, the leasing concept. But not with all the people. Yes. But that also they say, depending on what the community decides.
TcS: The community members insist that they can't do it alone, that they need the support of the State.... Is that so?
Emsly: Yes. This experience of the communal authorities and the community members is because there have been several meetings, of the territory with the communal authorities, with the regional authorities and there have never been any results. So now they are making a petition so that this time the government will hear it, so that it will take this need into account. The problem is to do with the economic resources, but nevertheless we as Wangki Twi Tasba Raya Territory with the laws that have been granted to us, with Law 28 and Law 445, currently we have imprisoned twelve outsiders and we also see that in some places the advance, the advance of the invasions has been stopped.
But however with this community specifically, we have not yet taken that step. But we do see that we have applied those laws and we have incarcerated people and that means that the government has made laws, regulations in our favor. But we see here that there are several aspects that are involved. For example, in some cases, some Miskito leaders also sold land. So it is like there is a socio-political problem. Seeing that, others did so as well.
And at the same time, there is also another aspect, when they saw the mestizos occupying land, when they saw that there was land, then some outsiders came illegally as well. So here this problem has been created by several aspects, not just by one aspect only. There are others who are here illegally as well. This is due to the lack of ... that is, due to cultural differences.
For the mestizos, the forests are a... for them they use them for agricultural activities, they use them as economic resources. For us it is only for daily subsistence and we respect the forests. That's why we have forests and we use them properly. We do not do very much logging.
So, as I mentioned before, this problem up to now is a social problem that is influenced by several factors, but in synthesis it is necessary to get going, to start with the issue of inter-territorial boundary clearance.
TcS: Comrade, could you explain your name?
Ignacio: Ignacio Tez Williams, the oversight officer for Wisconsin. Compañero Emsly is Secretary of the Wangki Twi Tasba Raya Territorial Government... All the demands that we have made, they are our senior leaders and they handle all our requests, so many things that we have requested, countless things and still up to this moment we are not seeing any result...
The result is, in brief, that we don't want outsiders on the communal lands because we in our culture since naturally we have watched people coming from Cruz de Rio Grande, from Matagalpa from other places, coming to take the land here from the children of the community of Wisconsin.
So, that's why... if we act alone these people shoot at us, we cannot dialogue, "the land is ours" they say, "we bought it, from here we cannot leave... from here you'll have to carry us out dead"... so, poor us, what can we do?
That is why we always expect the State to act, only the State has that power. We can mention many things, for example, the resources that the State can use.... So, there ithat's all there is to it. We, our clamor is, is that they give us freedom, yes, to work well, to harvest well, to live well without any fear.
But now for that same reason, since many people have died, many people, now we are holding back because if we all die like that who is the land going to be left to? And this whole thing is up to our top leaders and the State.
There is no other instance, even if we ask for more things our territorial leaders are always the instance concerned and the final one is the State. So we are waiting for the remediation, the boudnary clearance to begin.
Silvio Ángel Álvarez: Well, first of all I am going to introduce myself, because one has to know who is speaking. I am the former head of the community forest wardens and I was in charge at the time of the problem....
TcS: In 2015?
Silvio: Right. And I had to assume the responsibilities of chief forest warden and organize and direct the community members to defend themselves because of the land problem, plots of land that were in danger of being lost. It turned out that there were certain leaders who were involved in the land sales, regional and national leaders. They facilitated the entry of outsiders, settlers to occupy Miskito land. They facilitated and guaranteed the pieces of land to outsiders, who came with every intention of taking over Miskito land and among them came groups of violent delinquents, armed groups that were dedicated to land deals, selling Miskito land .
TcS: So you're explaining that leaders of the indigenous peoples in the region sold land...?
Silvio: Correct
TcS: To mestizos and those mestizos then invited others? ?
Silvio: Other mestizos...
TcS: Excuse me... thank you...
Silvio: Yes, for a while the Miskito people lived together with the mestizos in harmony, for a short period of time. And suddenly the attitudes of the outsiders, the settlers, changed and they began to buy more land and others came in with much worse intentions. Many of them were violent delinquent groups that organized to steal cattle, steal property, take over farms by killing the farmers, take over the land and put it up for resale. And that happened from 2013 to 2015 for two or three years they dedicated themselves to harassing the communities.
First, they took fifteen head of cattle from the community of La Esperanza, whose owner is a policeman, Lieutenant Dixon, they took fifteen head of cattle. So, the community members were a little angry and then they stole 35 head of cattle from the community of Wisconsin and after that they came in, shot and wounded some community members here in the community of Santa Clara, and stole solar panels....
TcS: In 2015?
Silvio: In 2015, that's right. And then the community members, with the intention of defending themselves, suggested undertaking self-defense, which means to defend oneself. Because we have authorities to defend us. But we were kind of abandoned, so the communities as a whole got together. They armed themselves with what they could and dedicated themselves to defending their land, to patrol the mountains that belonged to the communities. And so a mini-war arose in which there were deaths....
TcS: How many dead on the side of...?
Silvio: In the community there were two dead in the community of La Esperanza. There were five dead, six dead...
TcS: And how many mestizos died?
Silvio: We don't have the count because during the confrontations we didn't have time to count bodies.
TcS: But on their side there were dead?
Silvio: There were also, because they came to attack us here and we, since there is a God who protects us, we were informed of the enemy's movements, so we prepared ourselves, we made trenches, we set up a circular defense in the community with what we had and when they came in to attack us, we defended ourselves with what little we had. A judge from the community and a young community member died.
TcS: In 2015?
Silvio: Then that continued until 2019. The problem continued, because the outsider settlers were much better organized, with much more armed force, they continue to harass us, taking our land piece by piece, and so far, just ten, fifteen minutes form here they have everything that is our land, everything that we have worked for, they have it.
TcS: And what do you expect from our authorities, from the government?
Silvio: We ask them, we beg them to pay heed us, to look at our problem. There are children suffering from hunger because their parents cannot go to bring food from the forest. They have to go looking for food near the community.
TcS: What is your name?
José Kevin: José Kevin
TcS: Yes, José, what do you want to say?
José: I want to explain about this situation that is going on with the settlers...
TcS: Yes...
José: Right now they are always present. So, I'm going to tell you about how I work on the Wawa but they always come. They grabbed me and captured me, well, there were eleven of them and they all had weapons. So when... they told me that they were looking for land to sell or rent here. So, at about this time of day they captured me, at about five o'clock, over there. So I told them, when they had already captured me, I couldn't say anything. So I told them, I just told them I was going to sell and I was going to give them. Instead of .... running, I ran. So that's how it happened in my case. That is what I have to explain.
TcS: When was that José?
José: It was this... about two years ago, one year passed... it was a year ago...
TcS: And from then it has been...
José: From there, that's on the other side, but they're always there on the river banks, yes... that's my word...
TcS: May I have your name, sir?
Camilo Arauz: Camilo Arauz. I am the pastor of the church here. We used to work very calmly on another side of the Wawa River. We had a plantation there, we planted plantain, banana, guineo, quequisque, square plantain... we abandoned everything there on the other side of the Wawa River. There we had coconut, cocoa, coffee, avocado, pijibaya, we abandoned everything. The settlers collected it for themselves. That is the problem we have in the community. Also, the settlers cleared boundaries very close, just over there.
TcS: What do you mean by boundaries?
Camilo: Cleared boundary limits... they cleared their limits, right close by the community. Nearby, no more than fifteen minutes away we could get there to the settlers' boundary clearances. So, the settlers have their objective, they seek to get all this community within their power. They want to remove us. And now for the people who are wise, that thinking they realize is big problem.
TcS: And before you got along well with the mestizos?
Camilo: Before, before we used to cross to the other side of the river, we are like... I am a hunter, we would go to hunt animals, from there we bring back wild boar meat, monkey, fish, guinea fowl, turkeys... now there are no more because they cleared everything, the forest clearance, by the settlers, some settlers have about sixteen hundred head of cattle. ... each hectare, one head of cattle eats one hectare, how many hectares are they clearing to sow pasture and now they want to take away all we have, they think, with their power, but we aren't letting them do it. And now, what ways have we explored? My own opinion, my objective is not to move so as to take human life. Better that one sets about looking for how we solve this problem...
Lensto
n Espinoza: Well, my name is Lenston Espinoza. I am the teacher here in Santa Clara. I teach high school classes. Yes, we have lived here for many years, haven't we, and we have come to be familiar with some problematic issues that appear here on the Atlantic Coast and also in the community of Santa Clara, it's on the other side of the river, that there is a problem, right? There are times when we, the people of the community wanted to go there to do things... to look after their plantations, but with these problems we cannot tend to them.
We cannot go there peacefully, walk along the river and we cannot go peacefully because there are problems because the mestizos, they... they are there and all the land or all along the river banks they totally control there, they have their homes there and they have their houses et cetera. But we are looking for a way, but we are looking for a way, right, of how we might solve this problem.
TcS: What has been the response of the authorities, of your territorial authorities and of the State?
Lenston: The State authorities, right? That they become conscious that these people, are forcing people out.... But also that there's an awareness that they have the facility to reach an understanding between the State and the people as well.
TcS: With the community?
Lenston: With the community... But also that we think... or we sometimes feel, don't we? that these people, they don't want to have solutions with us...
TcS: The mestizos?
Lenston: The mestizos... But it's just that they are there. So, every time when people from the village go to the other side, for example to fish, to hunt for some small animals... that is to say, some game or other animals to eat... then they don't give them permission. And we are telling the president of the territory to support us. And we asked him to reach an agreement beween the mestizos and ourselves, because we have community leaders here too, right? So we want the territorial, state and community leaders to work together.
TcS: And what do you think about the development of the remediation process?
Lenston: For my part, we have already heard that word many times... of course, with the process that has been going on, right, which are the five stages, I think all the stages have already taken place and have finished, right? But the last stage of remediation remains there. But I believe that all the people of the community want... all the people here want the remediation stage to be done and if the government does that remediation stage, I believe that the people will be satisfied and they will feel happy and the people will feel very satisfied with all the works that the government wants to do for them. Yes, and the people are asking for help more than anything else, right, to carry out the last stage of remediation.
It is important to clear the boundaries because I say that as soon as we claer the boundaries, we know or we are going to know, right? who the people are on our lands, and who are the people who are involved in those lands. The important thing is to know what territory belongs to this community of Santa Clara.
TcS: And compañero, when was the last incident of violence that affected you in this community?
Lenston: The last violence that took place? The most intense that I saw that was....
Other compañero: In 2013
Lenston: Yes, yes, yes, ...in the year....
Other: 2013
Lenston: 2013, the third of September when we saw that, right? That there was fighting, shootings, bullets flying here in this community of Santa Clara...
TcS: I'm a little confused because someone wrote a report recently that came out overseas stating that here this year or last year you were attacked by 200 armed settlers and many people were killed. That's what I read...
Lenston: No, no, no...that's not the case, but what I explained was that there were two dead here and that is why we buried them inside the village, only them but no more dead.
TcS: But that was in two thousand and.... in what year...?
Lenston: In 2015
Other: 2015
(several speak in Miskito)
TcS: But since then 2015 you haven't had violence? Or have you?
Lenston: From 2015 onwards they also had problems...right? Not only that from 2015. But from 2015 when it happened the settlers also came to fight with the young people and sometimes they even carried off the children or the young people, right? They took them across to the other side and kidnapped more than anything else and they were prosecuted. But I think they are also afraid ince one day they had to let the children return, yes....